Recommendations for PCB offers on electro-music

[fonik]

hi folks,

i decided to catch the ball (howard was so nice to throw at me). i'd say it maybe would be good to have a sticky thread in the diy forum with recommendations for how to offer PCBs.
especially we in germany tend to have rules and laws for almost everything, that may be good in some cases and is definitely obstructive in others. one of the things i personally actually appreciate on the internet/web is the sparse of control. and many things will regulate themselves, we should not protect people who do not want to be protected. you cannot have experiences without risks.
however the latest events show that it could be good to ahve some guidelines all member know about. therefor i would say: recommendations not rules or even code of conduct.
what do you think?

my recommendations would be:
1. don't ask for money before you get the boards
2. do QA
3. be clear, helpful and kind, we do it for each other
4. communicate the progress
5. estimate the degree of difficulty

[Tim Servo]

Hey Fonik,

Sounds good. I would also like to suggest a proposed code of conduct for those interested in buying PCBs:

1) Be honest about your interest and ability to buy. Say "I really want one" only if you're really interested and fully intend to buy. Say you're "mildly interested" if you're not really sure about either (interest or ability to buy).

2) Well, that's about it, really. I have several possible suggestions for those building boards (be honest about your ability - don't dive in to a complicated project if you're not ready for it; double and triple check your work - a misplaced or reversed component is often the culprit; don't work when you're tired; etc., etc.) but that's for another time and place.

I think it's completely fair to suggest some guidelines for those selling PCBs, but I also think it's fair to expect honesty and good communication from both sides of the (potential) transaction. Basically, we're saying that we expect everyone to play nice!


Tim (plays well with others, especially the cute ones) Servo

[Scott Stites]

Thanks for running with this, Matthias - it's a very worthwhile thread.

I agree with your 5 points, also.

One exception, for pre-pay, would be perhaps parts kits, things like that. Those probably wouldn't happen otherwise, and aren't as "sure" (if that even applies) as a PCB sale. For example, people may buy the PCB, but they don't have to buy the parts from you.

Tim's idea is equally as interesting, and one that never occurred to me at all. It is a two-way street. Someone can knock themselves out mentally and financially on the "definitely want one" responses, then end up holding the bag when all is said and done. It's one thing for a business, but I don't think anybody here really considers themselves a *real* business, and I mean that in the sense that it's a source of one's livlihood. Even Magic Smoke - I don't believe for one second that Tim or John would live for very long off of any "profits" that arise from the endeavour - it's borne by a love of the whole electronic music and instrument making thing than anything else. To my knowledge, there's only one member out there that has aspirations of creating a profitable company, but I won't go into that here.

I recall Ian's had problems with the "definitely/crickets chirping" crowd. I have a hard time believing some who have reserved Klee board sets will really pony up here in a week or so. One guy reserved five board sets and I'm not sure he had a clue at the time what building five Klee's would involve. I've never seen the guy post, or heard anything from him since. In my case, I just made this a one time thing - if it dies, it dies and the money's gone. I could never do such a thing consistently.

And, yes! - it would be nice if the buyer's had some idea that they could pull the project off. I've tried to head that off with never talking about how "simple" the Klee was, only that it was made "simpler" by putting it on PCB with Andy's connector scheme (and that was probably a mistake). Also, I tried to make the build doc as detailed as possible. Still, those measures can only go so far, and they don't stop me from worrying.

Loss1234, bless his heart, is trying his damndest, which I admire, but a commercial power supply kit turned out to be pretty challenging for him at this stage of his development - he wants a Klee set, and I shudder to think of the troubleshooting thread that would arise out of that. Tronato's experience with the WSG, another very uncomplicated circuit, went just as badly. In both cases, the builders would get frustrated and start blaming the design. The power supply - maybe, but the WSG, I know as well as I know the palm..er...back of my hand that Ray simply wouldn't ship a PCB design that didn't work.

So, yeah, two way street - the buyer can lose or the seller can lose.

Cheers,
Scott

[elektro80]

Matthias, good post! Great suggestions!


Scott, you have some important points there. Many of the customers won´t be able to get even the simplest of the designs to work and the Klee needs some serious love and attention in order to get it right.

We will see all sorts of people here. You probably already noticed that guy who have been posting for help re some kind 500 USD max Odyssey clone. Clearly he doesn´t really understand what it is he really wants or needs and he should absolutely not start to build anything fancy based on his current ideas.

[blue hell]

[EdisonRex]

re: the first and second grade builders (and the kindergardeners)...

We should also encourage them, but we should give them tips (like, GO SLOWLY) and push newbies into easy kits like Ray's stuff, instead of Thomas's stuff. We have the wherewithal to discern here. It's a community, and the DIY community needs nurturing. Yes, there will be experts, and they can continue to be their usual selves.

We don't, by the way, need to offer boards for wicked easy circuits. But some schematics for relatively simple stuff (mixers, S&H, clocks, logic stuff) things that teach the basics (use op amps to buffer i/o, capacitors for bypass, etc).

I cringe at some of the Klee kits that will go out (oh I will build mine but I like to go slowly) and we will be otherwise doing debug support. Well, Scott and Co will. But this is a good test of the process.

I think Ray's forum has good examples of people who need help understanding how to do an easy circuit.

I need to think this out more.

[blue hell]

[v-un-v]

Nice one Matthias (for carrying the torch!)

[EdisonRex]

[Thomas Henry]

[Scott Stites]

Didn't mean to derail the thread, and I do believe in helping people. I just meant that sometimes it's in people's best interest not to attempt some of the designs before they do bite off more than they can chew. It would help if a realistic difficulty rating were included in a discussion of a project.

[elektro80]

Scott, you are absolutely right. Even though this angle is a bit OT here, this is something we should discuss in full possibly in its own thread.

[Tim Servo]

[Thomas Henry]

[Scott Stites]

Heck, running downstairs for the tornadoes is the only excercise we get in Kansas. It's a good thing she moved to Twenty Nine Palms! I bet everything was happily ever after then.....

[EdisonRex]

[elektro80]

..and now I´m supposed to mention dead celebrities??

Well, what can a poor boy do in order to give birth to a cult?

..toilets.. right...

Victor Hugo !!


You know I could have mentioned Marmite, but then it moves when you pronounce toilet with that Peter Sellers french.. so obviously it isn´t dead.. might be a celebrity though...

[Scott Stites]

It is the pinnacle of plumbological technology, a gleaming porcelain altar to Neptune himself. And it was installed by my wife, who started out life as a Vietnamese peasant in Angiang Province, belonging to a family from the wrong side after the fall of Saigon, dodging the Cambodian incursion, and swiping mangos from the good communists trees to keep from starving. She's been here eleven years, didn't know a word of English when she immigrated, naturalized as a citizen, and installed this toilet with nothing more than the manufacturer's instructions, a cheap plumbing book, and the discouraging words of her disbelieving husband.

I love that toilet.....

So, yeah, people are going to try something, regardless of the difficulty rating, and I think I've taken this about as far OT as it can get

Sorry, Matthias. We return to "Recommendations for PCB offers on electro-music", in its entirety...

[fonik]

so i just reviewed the posts and updated the recommendations. it would be good if you all continue on commenting these, since i consider myself as just the editor in this case. when we eventually come to a point where we can say, okay, that's it in general, a native speaker should reword and spice it, i guess.


Recommendations for PCB sales on electro-music.com:

If you offer PCBs from a forthcoming PCB run:

1. In general don’t ask for money before you received the boards from manufacturer (there might be circumstances that require pre-pay, though).
2. Do QA (i.e. populate and test at least one of the PCBs, triple check your work and documentation).
3. Communicate the progress and process in the forums public.
4. Be clear (i.e. time frames).
5. Estimate a difficulty rating.

If you want to buy a PCB:

1. Be honest about your interest and ability to buy. Are you interested or do you definitely want one? (Money is a rare resource for some of us)
2. Be aware that you are buying a PCB at your own risk. electro-music.com or the seller is not responsible for your unsuccessful attempt to build it, when you just bite off more than you can chew.

[Scott Stites]

Iiiiiii like it!

[EdisonRex]

yeah, simple, common sense, good.

[v-un-v]

Sounds good to me Fonik (and I know I too have been guilty of question one part B on occassions )

[fonik]

[v-un-v]

[elektro80]