Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject:
A Few Quick Questions From a Newbie Subject description: Probably elementary questions, but...
OK, I am now tired of lurking and am ready to start building. I am not a complete newb to electronics, but I am to Lunetta's. I only have a few quick questions that are probably elementary to those of you that are more advanced builders, but I want to make sure I have my ideas right.
1. Am I correct to assume that the heart of any Lunetta is some sort of oscillator, whether it be a 40106, 4093, or another variation?
2. If assumption #1 is correct then the oscillator outputs to other modules to get variances in sound (tone, frequency, color, pitch, etc...)?
3. These other modules can then either be inputs, outputs, or a mishmash of both depending on how things are patched and the noise one wants?
Your thanks ahead of time for your help with these questions and any nuggets of advice you can give.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:45 am Post subject:
Re: A Few Quick Questions From a Newbie Subject description: Probably elementary questions, but...
Blackrifle wrote:
OK, I am now tired of lurking and am ready to start building. I am not a complete newb to electronics, but I am to Lunetta's. I only have a few quick questions that are probably elementary to those of you that are more advanced builders, but I want to make sure I have my ideas right.
1. Am I correct to assume that the heart of any Lunetta is some sort of oscillator, whether it be a 40106, 4093, or another variation?
Welcome to electro-music! There are many very helpful people here. A smaller quantity whom have an interest in the Lunetta sub-world but many of those with that interest are very helpful as well.
The heart? Aye. Have to have something that makes a clock signal that can be processed elsewhere. (Well - it can be unprocessed itself, but it's a little boring that way. )
Quote:
2. If assumption #1 is correct then the oscillator outputs to other modules to get variances in sound (tone, frequency, color, pitch, etc...)?
All that you've said above as well as logical operations upon it, via Boolean algebra as well as other manipulations and manglings. (Basically - any waveform, can be processed, whether a normal waveform from a clock; from an oscillator or from anywhere else basically. For digital processing, passing the signal through a (forward biased) diode, will chop off the negative voltage portion, so that the digital circuitry will be happy with it.
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3. These other modules can then either be inputs, outputs, or a mishmash of both depending on how things are patched and the noise one wants?
Yes. Here, you've basically said the same thing I did, in the paragraph above.
Quote:
Your thanks ahead of time for your help with these questions and any nuggets of advice you can give.
Thanks,
Blackrifle
Not a trouble sir. I just now saw that you'd registered at my site. I just activated you.
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject:
Ok, let me give a sample of what I have done so far. Only about 2 minutes long and I was mostly just toying with this module to see what I could do with it.
Short description. A single oscillator from a 40106 with an "experimental" hookup to a CD4040 . I say experimental because I just went from pinouts based on the CMOS Cookbook.
Will give more info if anyone wants it. Would just like some feedback on what you all think.
Ok, let me give a sample of what I have done so far. Only about 2 minutes long and I was mostly just toying with this module to see what I could do with it.
Short description. A single oscillator from a 40106 with an "experimental" hookup to a CD4040 . I say experimental because I just went from pinouts based on the CMOS Cookbook.
Will give more info if anyone wants it. Would just like some feedback on what you all think.
Thanks,
Blackrifle
For a first go at it, that sounds pretty good! I'd like to know how the sound were alternating it seemed, between 2 different frequencies from the very beginning / on. That's the not the sound that 2 different divisions from a 4040 would make. I'm curious as to how it were done.
im curious how your lunetta is doing that as well, perhaps your actually using 2 gates of the 40106 into the 4040?
Regardless, your first experiments with the chip went infinitely better than mine, so i can easily see a fancy lunetta in your future.
Keep up the noisy work and maybe one day you'll get to open with your lunetta at your buddy's metal band's next show (like i am next week)! _________________ home made noise and electronic ill-logic
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:36 am Post subject:
Quote:
I'd like to know how the sound were alternating it seemed, between 2 different frequencies from the very beginning / on. That's the not the sound that 2 different divisions from a 4040 would make. I'm curious as to how it were done.
Very simple answer to this. When I was messing around with the pot changing some things around I noticed a little CDS light resistor laying there by itself. I just put it in the holes of the pot I was using and used it along with the pot to vary the sounds.
Will post some more once I get the bugs worked out of this.
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:21 am Post subject:
I am not near my module now, but here is the schematic as best that I can remember. A couple of things. All the LEDs should have been connected to ground (I left that out of the shematic). And pin 11(reset) on the 4040 I left unconnected. I think that is it, if there are any more questions about this module ask away.
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Maybe you can post an image file (.jpg or something like that)?
Here ya go. Sorry about that, took me a bit of time to figure out how to save it in the program I was using as something a little easier for everyone to use.
40106_and_4040_experiment_204.png
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I just took a quick look but I spotted 2 things where you could have gone wrong. Any input on a cmos IC always needs to be tied to ground, this is to prevent the input from "floating". Floating means that the input has no clear way of telling it has to be high or low and will pick up any signal from outside making it behave very irregular.
The common practice here is to tie inputs straight to ground when never using them and use a 100k resistor to ground if you want to be able to use it later as a patchpoint.
In your situation that would mean tying the reset with a 100k to ground and tying all the leftover inputs of the 40106 gates straight to ground.
It's also common to use a 0.1 uF capacitor as close to the +V and GND of the IC as possible to stabilize the powersupply. _________________ There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Hunter S. Thompson movies noise
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:34 am Post subject:
Quote:
In your situation that would mean tying the reset with a 100k to ground and tying all the leftover inputs of the 40106 gates straight to ground.
tjookum, thanks for your help.
Was just trying to figure out how to use the software for the schematic. I do have all the 40106 inputs tied to ground. However I did not tie the reset of the 4040 to ground. Could that be why some people commented about two separate frequencies from the sound file I uploaded? Hmm something to ponder on.
Also I ran out of jumper wire so I only have three outputs of the 4040 going straight to my amp through a 1N914 diode. The other outputs are just flashing LED's however I think there is some "bleed" over because I can definitely here slight moderation's in the audio when different LED's flash.
I will have to look a bit closer though, because I do remember there are either 2 or 3 LED's that are not lighting up at all. Could this be because of the reset pin not being tied to ground through a 100K resistor?
Anyway work is keeping me busy along with a 5 year old. I should have some time toward the end of the week to get this module out and work on it to get the best sound from it. When completed I will post pics, a full schematic, and more audio samples.
Is erery output running trough a resistor and LED and to the output, or is the LED tied to the ground and is the diode connected to the pin of the chip?
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:08 am Post subject:
Quote:
Is erery output running trough a resistor and LED and to the output, or is the LED tied to the ground and is the diode connected to the pin of the chip?
Kabzoer,
Yes and no, sort of. Let me explain. In the sound sample every output is running through a resistor and LED, however I only had enough jumper wires on hand to run 3 to audio out, these three outs are going to one 1N914 diode which feeds directly to the tip of my audio jack. All other outputs are running through resistor to led, then to ground. When I get enough jumpers put together I will run all outputs through resistors, then LED's then out to audio. Personally I like the sound the diode gives, but this is a personal preference. I got the idea from the Nicolas Collins book: Handmade Electronic Music
So you connect different outputs to eachother without diodes? I wondered if that works so i tested it and yes, you don't have to use diodes but it makes a different sound. And what difference does the diode at the output, is there much change in the sound?
Joined: Feb 16, 2011 Posts: 9 Location: United States, Kentucky
Audio files: 1
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject:
Quote:
And what difference does the diode at the output, is there much change in the sound?
In response to this here is what the book I previously mentioned earlier has to say word for word"
Quote:
If you mix the outputs together using a component called a “diode” instead, you’llnotice that the individual oscillators interact and distort in an archetypically “electronic music” way—they produce a “ring modulation”-type sound, in which sum and difference frequencies are exaggerated and the individual source pitches obscured...If you sum more than three oscillators together with diodes you might notice that the
signal gets oddly noisy; if you don’t like this artifact you might mix three to one jack and
three to another for a nice stereo sound field, or mix up the orientation of the diodes.
Sometimes this diode-mixing works connected to some kinds of amps and mixer and not
to others. If a multi-diode mixer does not work with your amplifier, try connecting an
additional 10kOhm resistor between the output point (where all the diodes tie together)
and ground."
I guess in other words just sort of experiment around with different configurations of diodes.
I read the book, but i think that you need a diode on every output to get the effect. I tested your design without LEDs and just connecting different outputs randomly with jumper wires or diodes and i really enjoyed the resulting complex rhythm and tone variations
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There are many very helpful people here. A smaller quantity whom have an interest in the Lunetta sub-world but many of those with that interest are very helpful as well. 
)
.. and for now 
Blackrifle!
